tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30413383.post2436397154489163622..comments2023-11-05T07:45:02.082-05:00Comments on Mystery Man on Film: Script Review - Hitman (Part 2)Mystery Manhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17486331815227364944noreply@blogger.comBlogger20125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30413383.post-55912974034294417252007-09-19T23:01:00.000-04:002007-09-19T23:01:00.000-04:00JJ - SO very sorry for my delay in responding. As...JJ - SO very sorry for my delay in responding. As you may have gathered, I disappeared due to... well, no comment. In any case, those are GREAT comments. I'd like to talk about these films you listed:<BR/><BR/>"The Last Emperor flashbacks? Mishima? Raging Bull? Pat Garret and Billy the Kid? Flags of Our Fathers? Nixon? Alexander? Goodfellas?"<BR/><BR/>I would have to re-watch those films. I don't recall flashbacks in Raging Bull. Let me say that I don't oppose flashbacks, just the <I>flashback structure</I> and I don't believe any of those films fit that definition, although I haven't seen Alexander or Nixon. With respect to Flags of our Fathers... I felt indifferent to the structure. I can't say it's a better movie because of it. The flashbacks in Letters of Iwo Jima, though, damn brilliant. I completely fell in love with that film.<BR/><BR/>I'm rambling. Hope that helps.<BR/><BR/>-MMMystery Manhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17486331815227364944noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30413383.post-51622603371961508362007-09-06T20:11:00.000-04:002007-09-06T20:11:00.000-04:00JJ sez--Hey, right on with your analysis of The Bo...JJ sez<BR/><BR/>--Hey, right on with your analysis of The Bounty! I think you pinpointed EXACTLY why it works so well--and I love that movie, must have watched in on DVD at least ten times, AND have read the script (which I heartily recommend, btw)--but I never picked up on most of that stuff. So true, if it had opened with Christian, not Bligh, that would have really damaged the narrative. Of course, when you're doing historical figures like that, you probably have a little more leeway then something like "Hitman"--which, I agree, seems to gain nothing from this flashback structure, and in fact appears to have no good reason for existing, as far as I can tell....<BR/><BR/>--Just an aside, but god, Bounty must be one of the most chronically underrated movies of the 80s. A great script, amazing photography, and that cast: along with Hopkins and Gibson, you have Liam Neeson, Daniel Day Lewis, Laurence Olivier, Edward Fox and Bernard Hill. (No, despite popular rumor, one of the mutineers is not Colin Farrell. He'd have been about six years old that was shot.)<BR/><BR/>--Anyway, I'm sure Bolt and, of course, David Lean, who was pretty much Bolt's uncredited co-writer on The Bounty back when he was planning to direct it, thought of all those elements in the narrative. Lean's pre-Bolt films use some similiar devices, like Brief Encounter.<BR/><BR/>--But it's important not to confuse non-chronological structure with flashbacks. I do agree that what you're describing with Hitman is a groaning cliche that rarely works anyway. But is, say, The Last Emperor flashbacks? Mishima? Raging Bull? Pat Garret and Billy the Kid? Flags of Our Fathers? Nixon? Alexander? Goodfellas?<BR/><BR/>--Closer to home, does the flashback theory apply to say, Little Big Man and Forrest Gump? In both of those cases we meet the antagonist and know exactly where he'll end up at the end. Does it work? I would argue it does, because those films are not primarily focused on the survival of a protagonist fighting against enemies. They're in many ways about the people Forrest Gump and Little Big Man meet and the sights they see, about the journey, not so much the destination.<BR/><BR/>--John Milius' Conan The Barbarian (the movie, interestingly--this is not in his script) originally opened with a shot of Conan as a bearded king on a throne, and he narrated the story (and this IS in the script.) But that shot was eventually used at the END of the movie, and the Wizard character became the narrator--presumably because Milius, being a great screenwriter, came to feel the same way MM does--that in an action/adventure film like Conan, knowing that the main character lives to be old and wise kinda takes something from it!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30413383.post-25690062392378567822007-09-06T16:12:00.000-04:002007-09-06T16:12:00.000-04:00I would say that losing readers/viewers is a resul...I would say that losing readers/viewers is a result of poor writing. And there are many reasons why the writing is bad, but using flashbacks without understanding them is one of the most common mistakes inexperienced writers make.<BR/><BR/>I've read a lot of scripts on TS, which is a great place to find writing samples by people who think they can learn to write by watching a movie.<BR/><BR/>Invariably, if you see basic mistakes on the first page, you're going to find a flashback stuck in where two lines of back-story dialogue should be.<BR/><BR/>Flashback is a tool that should be used only by experienced writers, and it's a tool that can be dangerous in the hands of beginning writers. I've seen some very bad accidents happen when inexperienced writers use flashback.<BR/><BR/>Yes, MM, I think a study on flashback would be helpful. But I'm not sure I would be able to use the best examples of badly used flashback. The TS members who created them might not give their permission to use them.Mimhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11590214841424958129noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30413383.post-42677979266010941632007-09-06T13:34:00.000-04:002007-09-06T13:34:00.000-04:00The clue to bad storytelling is simply that the re...The clue to bad storytelling is simply that the reader / listener / watching doesn't want to read / listen / watch any longer . . . whether it's because of adverbs or flashbacks or lack thereof . . .Joshua Jameshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08239067667651048280noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30413383.post-19933620353017038752007-09-06T12:39:00.000-04:002007-09-06T12:39:00.000-04:00Hey JJ, thanks so much. Those are great comments....Hey JJ, thanks so much. Those are great comments. I'm going to sound like I'm talking out of both sides of my mouth, but I want to be careful about a couple of things. <BR/><BR/>1) I have long felt that all stories should be considered individually, and even though I despise flashback structures, it would be wrong for me to say one cannot use it under any circumstance. There are plenty of great exceptions. <BR/><BR/>1a) Ya know, <I>The Bounty</I> is a great example (I hadn't thought of that and I saw the one with Brando a couple of months ago). A number of reasons make that flashback structure work. We already know that there will be mutiny, it opens with JUST the antag, not the antag AND the protag, and the mystery is what happened to Christian, not Bligh.<BR/><BR/>2) I do make a distinction between stories that make prolific use of flashbacks and a <I>flasbhack structure</I> in which it opens with the ending and someone tells his/her story. Gag me. I think it irritates me because, for some reason, SO many newbies cling to this structure when more often then not, it's pointless.<BR/><BR/>3) I do love experimentation with structure, although I think that newbies should master the 3 act structure first. All the great masters: Altman, Bergman, Fellini, mastered the 3 act first before really playing with structure. Now continuing with the thought of considering stories individually, does a flashback structure help in the case of <I>Hitman</I> an action picture? Not at all.<BR/><BR/>I guess the point here is that there has to be a clearly defensible, definable reason to do anything like that.<BR/><BR/>-MMMystery Manhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17486331815227364944noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30413383.post-4541667005558612982007-09-06T12:06:00.000-04:002007-09-06T12:06:00.000-04:00JJ Sez:--Almost everything Robert Bolt ever did us...JJ Sez:<BR/><BR/>--Almost everything Robert Bolt ever did uses a flashback structure...Kinda.<BR/><BR/>Dr. Zhivago? Flashback. The Mission? Flashback. Lawrence Of Arabia? Flashback--at least, we start out knowing Lawrence survives WWI to die in a motorcycle crash, which would seem to be taking the suspense away, as MM claims this does.<BR/><BR/>Ironically, I think his most successful use of this was in probably his least seen writing...The Bounty, where it opens with Bligh going into this court martial, then flashes back from there, so we know all along Bligh is'nt going to be killed by Tofuan cannibals or starve in the lifeboat, ect...But it works like gangbusters! You completely forget that these are even flashbacks until they cut back to the Royal Naval courtroom...<BR/><BR/>I guess, though, since in a lot of cases these films show things that the people supposedly having the flashbacks (Bligh, Zhivago's daughter and half-brother, the church official in Mission, and who knows in Lawrence) could not have witnessed or even knew about, they'd be more properly defined as framing devices, not flashbacks.<BR/><BR/>What's the differance between a framing device and a flashback structure? A topic for discussion.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30413383.post-58630098958665634542007-09-06T10:35:00.000-04:002007-09-06T10:35:00.000-04:00I hadn't considered this before, but perhaps a few...I hadn't considered this before, but perhaps a few articles on flashbacks might be interesting.<BR/><BR/>-MMMystery Manhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17486331815227364944noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30413383.post-40417233035693123732007-09-06T08:42:00.000-04:002007-09-06T08:42:00.000-04:00"it ain't the flashbacks that bother you . . . it'..."it ain't the flashbacks that bother you . . . it's the bad story-telling . . . don't hang it on the flashbacks"<BR/><BR/>Flashbacks work when used in the proper context by a good story-teller, but they seem to be one of those tools that bad story-tellers grab onto and use without understanding how they work.<BR/><BR/>I will hang it on the flashbacks. Flashbacks badly used are often a clue to bad story-telling. They seem to have this dark glamor, and people gravitate to them without understanding how dangerous they can be.Mimhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11590214841424958129noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30413383.post-77397094746219964172007-09-05T21:32:00.000-04:002007-09-05T21:32:00.000-04:00Mickey - fabulous comments. Couldn't agree more. R...Mickey - fabulous comments. Couldn't agree more. Resevoir Dogs was particularly great, especially within the context of that mystery surrounding someone's betrayal. You just cling to every flashback looking for answers. I love that film.<BR/><BR/>Joshua - I recall Stephen King saying in his "On Writing" book that "the road to hell is paved with adverbs." And I thought, "God, that would make for a great short story." Ya know? Hehehe...Mystery Manhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17486331815227364944noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30413383.post-4825816604830709882007-09-05T20:26:00.000-04:002007-09-05T20:26:00.000-04:00Then there is also RUN LOLA RUN'S great use of fla...Then there is also RUN LOLA RUN'S great use of flash-forwards with the various characters she ran across on her way. . . and in a way, almost a flashback, because we would stop and go back to the beginning each time a new section had to begin, right? <BR/><BR/>Sure American Beauty ripped off Sunset - Grotoski said, "good ideas are borrowed, great ideas are stolen!"<BR/><BR/>You know, seriously though, it ain't the flashbacks that bother you . . . it's the bad story-telling . . . don't hang it on the flashbacks . . . it's just really one tool . . . <BR/><BR/>I don't mind flashbacks, not at all, when they're done well . . . and they're done well fairly often (LOST, anyone?) - more often than we probably can admit . . . like Voice-overs . . . can work great (half of Forest Gump was a flashback, done with Voice-overs, and done well) . . . <BR/><BR/>The fact that this guy uses a flashback unnecessarily is evidence more of his bad writing skills (and evidenced also in his action descriptions) . . . But really, for every bad movie or TV show that you mention which uses flashbacks or voice-overs, it ain't those things that are causing our distaste . . . it's the bad writer and their bad decisions. <BR/><BR/>I had this same conversation with a fiction author, one who hates adverbs. <BR/><BR/>Bad writers use a lot of adverbs unnessarily, (like the irony of that adverb I put in?) but that ain't the adverb's fault . . . and using a juicy adverb now and again, especially when it's desperately needed(hah, did it again) doesn't label one a bad writer . . . it's the choice that goes into it, right? <BR/><BR/>Bad writers also use the word "the". <BR/><BR/>So do good ones. <BR/><BR/>Good ones put "the" where it belongs. Bad ones put it everywhere irregardless . . . <BR/><BR/>I'm just ranting and raving, obviously, so don't take it personal . . . I like dialoguing about this . . <BR/><BR/>And I don't think I used caps EVEN ONCE. <BR/><BR/>Oops.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30413383.post-91942389714352694982007-09-05T18:41:00.000-04:002007-09-05T18:41:00.000-04:00Mission Impossible 3's use of flashback structure ...Mission Impossible 3's use of flashback structure was pointless. You could've taken it out and the story would've been just fine. If you need to move something exciting up to the front of the movie just to entice the audience, then just write a more exciting beginning.<BR/><BR/>Citizen Kane, Rashomon, The Usual Suspects -- flashbacks, I suppose, but only because the stories are based around reportage. We're hearing (seeing) different people's versions of events.<BR/><BR/>Tarantino's use of flashback in Reservoir Dogs and Pulp Fiction I felt was effective because he was trying to spotlight different characters throughout the narrative. I don't think it was used as effectively in Kill Bill, just because we are always focused on The Bride.<BR/><BR/>American Beauty was just ripping off (I mean, playing homage to) Sunset Blvd!<BR/><BR/>Godfather 2 -- not really flashback. Two parallel stories taking place in different time periods.<BR/><BR/>I was just watching Dolores Claiborne last night, which had heavy use of flashback. Again, I think it works because 1) there's a criminal investigation going on and the inspector (Plummer) is trying to check everyone's stories and 2) Jennifer Jason Leigh has blocked out a lot of past and is trying to uncover her memories.<BR/><BR/>Hitman -- of course, I haven't seen the movie, but it sounds like it's just trying to jump on the flashback bandwagon. Another example of style over substance.Mickey Leehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00412489099199994379noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30413383.post-88947500159737269972007-09-05T14:00:00.000-04:002007-09-05T14:00:00.000-04:00Christian - just to clarify, I'm not opposed to fl...Christian - just to clarify, I'm not opposed to flashbacks, just the <I>flashback structure</I>, which gives away the ending at the very beginning. The only real good defensible purpose to doing that is to prepare the audience for something emotionally severe, like a tragedy, which I think fits in with your comment about the funeral. Anway, thanks for that.<BR/><BR/>-MMMystery Manhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17486331815227364944noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30413383.post-88326523769667811592007-09-05T13:57:00.001-04:002007-09-05T13:57:00.001-04:00Grubber - Hehehe... Unfortunately, the agency avo...Grubber - Hehehe... Unfortunately, the agency avoids jobs for prominent figures in allied countries. But I'll take a look at that hooker...<BR/><BR/>Mim - completely agree. I recall <I>Acadia</I>, but it's been awhile. I seem to think I wasn't fond of his flashback structure, but I'm not sure. <BR/><BR/>Bob - Just to clarify, I'm not opposed to flashbacks, per say, just the Flashback Structure. Great points on the antagonists. Really enjoyed that.<BR/><BR/>Joshua - In both <I>Citizen Kane</I> and <I>American Beauty</I>, the audiences were getting prepped for the tragedy at the end. <I>Godfather II</I> doesn't really fit the definition of flashback structure, but I like the back and forth and contrasts of those two stories. There's real genius in that.<BR/><BR/>-MMMystery Manhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17486331815227364944noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30413383.post-18784803862411791722007-09-05T13:57:00.000-04:002007-09-05T13:57:00.000-04:00As a writer who has only looked at flashbacks once...As a writer who has only looked at flashbacks once, I can agree that they can suck real bad.<BR/><BR/>I think they work really well if the first scene is a funeral. Well, at least that's how I'm playing it.<BR/><BR/>Besides, by the time most movies come out we've seen "Making Of," teasers, trailers, or basically the whole damn movie in little parts, so I guess it's how you get there.Christian H.https://www.blogger.com/profile/16847810167041864292noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30413383.post-63654753652984226302007-09-05T12:58:00.000-04:002007-09-05T12:58:00.000-04:00Godfather 2, serious flashbacks within, heh . . .Godfather 2, serious flashbacks within, heh . . .Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30413383.post-15910638973051954512007-09-05T12:57:00.000-04:002007-09-05T12:57:00.000-04:00CITIZEN KANE was one long flashback. It can work, ...CITIZEN KANE was one long flashback. <BR/><BR/>It can work, like anything, it just has to be done for the sake of the story, not for the sake of a flashback, nothing else. <BR/><BR/>And besides, knowing the ending isn't nearly as exciting, sometimes, as knowing how we got there. <BR/><BR/>In American Beauty the protog tells us he'll be dead soon . . .Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30413383.post-88292969991184946332007-09-05T10:52:00.001-04:002007-09-05T10:52:00.001-04:00I am a recent convert to MM's thoughts on flashbac...I am a recent convert to MM's thoughts on flashback. If you already know the protag's outcome (at least to the point where the protag begins the flashback) you know the ending. Therefore, any twists you throw in, any attempt to show the protag in danger or a situation contrary to his later stance, will all be hollow and meaningless. <BR/><BR/>Regarding the emotional motivations for the hitman- I've also found that true for the antagonist and something I've been concentrating on. There has to be a reason for the antagonist to act and in their mind they have to feel their actions are justified and right within their universe. And we also have to see the reverberations of their actions in their lives. That's what I realized I never liked about all those teeny bopper slasher movies. Why did they keep killing. A movie like monster with Charlize Theron is much more palatable and in some ways more frightening because you get to see that rationale, no matter how twisted you may find it to be.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05537155200839804221noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30413383.post-44955418189649877502007-09-05T10:52:00.000-04:002007-09-05T10:52:00.000-04:00Love the caps, LOVE THEM!I agree with everything y...Love the caps, LOVE THEM!<BR/><BR/>I agree with everything you've written . . . and I believe flashbacks can work well (Reservoir Dogs, anyone?) but you're points about why THESE don't work are spot on.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30413383.post-89919032586397403512007-09-05T09:08:00.000-04:002007-09-05T09:08:00.000-04:00The flashback structure works well when there is a...The flashback structure works well when there is a separate story line to the present story.<BR/><BR/>A good example of this is Pete Vicaire's Acadia. An old woman gives her granddaughter a diary that's a family heirloom. The two women read the diary and discuss the man who kept it. The main story, set in the 1600's, plays out. At some of the turning points in the story, Pete returns us to the two women.<BR/><BR/>When the story is over, and the diary has been read, the young woman finds a lesson in the protag's story that applies to her own life.<BR/><BR/>Mission Impossible 3 used a flashback structure, but all it did was start with a scene from the end of the second act and then catch us up.<BR/><BR/>Unless something is set up in the event you're flashing back FROM, and that something leads to its own story, the flashback structure is automatically weak.Mimhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11590214841424958129noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30413383.post-64297020705655908902007-09-05T02:05:00.000-04:002007-09-05T02:05:00.000-04:00"BALD with a BARCODE on the back of your head, you..."BALD with a BARCODE on the back of your head, you might want to nix the suit and try to BLEND IN" <BR/><BR/>As one who grew up during the good old Cold War, isn't this what all Russians look like?<BR/><BR/>Bush is in our little country this week, shall I send him the hooker for you 47?<BR/>cheers<BR/>DaveGrubberhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10435524784373114313noreply@blogger.com